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YouGamers.com News Wrath Brings Major Changes To WoW Raiding

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By: Jarno Kokko Aug 29, 2008

Wrath Brings Major Changes To WoW Raiding

Each new World of Warcraft patch has always brought some changes - often minor, sometimes major. However, yesterday's little forum post by a Blizzard developer contained some seriously explosive details about some major changes slated for Wrath of the Lich King.

To summarize for those who don't spend all of their free time doing 25-man raids in WoW; Blizzard is completely redesigning and re-balancing raid buffs and debuffs and how they stack, and thus indirectly changing everything related to the class makeup of raid groups. For 25-man raids this is such a fundamental change that some have already compared it to the (ill-fated) "NGE" patch of Star Wars Galaxies. While I'm not ready to go that far, I can say that it's a highly ambitious change to core game mechanics - and the change will have implications for all areas of the game.

Blizzard's massive Wall of Text follows;

Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

As Ghostcrawler has been posting recently, we've decided to make a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack exclusively in a raid. For the most part, what this change means is that many buffs and debuffs which were previously allowed to stack together no longer can, and that many buffs and debuffs which only a single talent specialization could bring can now be brought by multiple different specializations. The philosophy behind this change shows up in many of the changes we have made in Wrath of The Lich King, such as when we made almost all buffs raid-wide. We want players to be able to form raids and parties based on who they want to play with, rather than who has the correct talents and abilities to min-max their raid performance. Raid composition will still matter to some extent, but without this change, it would have overwhelmed every other aspect of raid planning (as we added new capabilities to each of 30 different talent trees). You no longer need to rigidly control the melee/spellcaster balance of your raid, or make sure every group has all the critical buffing classes, etc. This change has many class balance implications. Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the performance of every class. Do not assume that the classes' current performance relative to others in the beta is final. Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased. Many will complain the change has more impact on class X than class Y. We will address all those concerns via our internal testing and community feedback.

Ok, given that preamble, here is a comprehensive list of the changes which were made. If testers find additional changes not documented, or additional changes that need to be made ("Hey, buff XYZ got left out of the plan!"), please post and we will investigate.

There are thirty or so different categories buffs and debuffs fit into, and I will list each category and which spells/talents are in that category.

  • Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
  • Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
  • Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
  • Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
  • Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
  • Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
  • Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage
  • Ranged Attack Power Buff: Hunter's Mark (only Hunters benefit, so no need to exclude against other class abilities)
  • Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma
  • Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem
  • Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
  • Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill
  • Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements
  • Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact
  • Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
  • Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
  • Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
  • Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
  • Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap
  • Melee Hit Chance Reduction Debuff: Insect Swarm, Scorpid Sting
  • Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks
  • Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
  • Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
  • Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
  • Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter
  • Stamina Buff: Power Word: Fortitude
  • Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact
  • Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence
  • Spirit Buff: Divine Spirit, Fel Intelligence
  • Damage Reduction Percentage Buff: Grace, Blessing of Sanctuary
  • Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura
  • Armor Increase Percentage Buff: Inspiration, Ancestral Healing
  • Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison.

In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants Spirit and Intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the Spirit value from Fel Intelligence.

In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the "Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same potency, as they scale in grow in radically different ways. In virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of Attack Power.

In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second. This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.

Finally, we have modified Heroism and Bloodlust to affect the entire raid. However, all affected raid members will be unable to cast or benefit from Bloodlust/Heroism for 5 minutes.

I will also list the changes to abilities which exhibit new behavior regardless of the exclusive categories. The changes usually mean the old behavior was removed and replaced by the new behavior. Numbers listed are for maximally-talented versions. Here is that changelist:

  • Improved Scorch: Increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
  • Winter's Chill: Also increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
  • Elemental Oath: Grants 5% spell crital strike to raid members.
  • Improved Moonkin Aura: Grants 3% haste of all types.
  • Earth and Moon: Increases spell damage taken from all schools by 13% on the target.
  • Misery: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit.
  • Shadow Weaving: Buffs only self.
  • Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.
  • Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.
  • Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.
  • Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
  • Fel Intelligence: Has replacement ranks that grant flat values of Intellect and Spirit.
  • Frost Aura: Excludes properly against all other resistance buffs.
  • Grace: Reduces damage taken by target by 3%.
  • Rampage: Increases melee and ranged critical strike chance by 5% for the raid.
  • Improved Faerie Fire: No longer benefits melee and ranged hit chance, only spell hit.
  • Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.
  • Improved Hunter's Mark: No longer grants melee attack power.
  • Sting (Hunter pet): Now acts as a minor armor debuff.
  • Waylay: Attack speed reduction changed to 20%.
  • Icy Touch: Only slows melee attack speed (not ranged or spell).
  • Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
  • Demonic Pact: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
  • Focus Magic: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
  • Totem of Wrath: Now grants a flat amount of spell damage, and all enemies in its radius have an increased chance of being struck by criticals.
  • Heroism: Cannot be recast while caster has Exhausted debuff, and those with Exhausted debuff cannot be affected by it.
  • Bloodlust: Cannot be recast while caster has Sated debuff, and those with Sated debuff cannot be affected by it.
  • Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
  • Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
  • Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

The Sky Is Falling?

Quite a post. WoW players - especially those dedicated to end-game raiding - are quickly trying to digest all that, and the first reaction could be summed with "Zomg! This changes everything". Some shortsighted players are naturally shocked how their spec X of class Y is "getting nerfed", but those concerns should be ignored for now - too many things are still unfinished with the expansion, none of the classes have been re-tuned for this new environment and many talents are still undergoing changes - there just isn't enough data to fully compare classes and spec builds to see which is "best" and which is "getting the shaft".

A more realistic fear is the reaction how this will change "raid stacking". As buffs are going to be raid-wide, there is no need to form optimal groups with perfect buff synergies within the group, and no need to bring multiple classes that provide those buffs for each group. In theory you could provide every important buff and debuff with just 6-8 characters. You might want to toss in couple of more for added redundancy, but high end raid encounters have recently been tuned so tightly that even that is probably not needed - as soon as someone dies, it doesn't matter if you have redundancy - the attempt is a wipe anyway. So you'll have raids with, say, 8 specific classes/specs to fill out every buff & debuff. Remaining 17 slots will then get filled by whatever class happens to be the "best DPS class" and "best healing class" at the moment - and the whole issue of lopsided raids stacked with ridiculous amount of specific class(es) is back with a vengeance.

The only obvious way to prevent this is to carefully balance the DPS output of all classes so that there is no reason to favor specific class. Problem is, if a druid in cat mode is just as effective as a rogue, or a warlock and any other caster does the same DPS, everyone will then just pick warlocks or druids for DPS, as they bring soulstones and combat resurrects to the table to give you that redundancy. There is more to the classes than just pure DPS output or the buffs/debuffs they bring, and then raids get just stacked around those abilities.

Then there is the whole issue of micro-managing spec builds. Many classes can save points by skipping specific buff-improving talents, and spend them instead on talents that improve their personal performance - healing power, DPS, threat, whatever. As many classes will be able to bring specific buffs or debuffs to the table, we'll have a ton of fiddling ahead where raid leaders have to carefully take into account the exact spec build of each character. Got three of one class in the raid? "One of you must have this buff talent as you'll be giving it to the raid - the rest of you can spec for more DPS. Roll a dice and see who gets to respec today."

Interesting Times...

I personally have a lot of faith in Blizzard developers to sort this huge change out in a way that doesn't utterly break the game, but it's a monumental task. They are effectively redesigning the whole class balance for all the classes at once, while simultaneously working towards launching a major content expansion with all-new raid encounters. And since these class changes will most likely go live with the 3.0.2 patch - due to appear well before the expansion - that means they most likely need to re-tune all existing level 70 raid content for the new status quo as well.

It's clear that nothing is too sacred for Blizzard in their existing game design, and they sure ain't afraid to try out new things. If this were just about any other developer doing it to any other game, I'd be right there with the naysayers, chanting the imminent doom of the whole game - but since it's Blizzard, they just might pull it off, and when it's all done and in the game, the consensus might actually be that the changes improved the game.

One thing is certain - the next few months will be interesting time for World of Warcraft...


 

Comments

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Unregistered 2008-08-29 #1
Interesting fanpost Jarnis :)

/Orvar




snowcrash512 2008-08-29 #2
I guess not being a hardcore raider I dont see what the big deal is... it all seems like a change for the better to me.




Jarnis 2008-08-29 #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
I guess not being a hardcore raider I dont see what the big deal is... it all seems like a change for the better to me.
The changes are minor for soloing and 5-mans.

The change is noticeable, and probably good for 10-mans.

For 25-mans, it all depends on how well they can balance everything... and like I said, if it were any other company except Blizzard, I would place my bets on "maed balance issues inc, game crashes and burns". With Blizzard, I've learned to trust them not to mess up something this critical... So, cautiously optimistic.




snowcrash512 2008-08-29 #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnis View Post
The changes are minor for soloing and 5-mans.

The change is noticeable, and probably good for 10-mans.

For 25-mans, it all depends on how well they can balance everything... and like I said, if it were any other company except Blizzard, I would place my bets on "maed balance issues inc, game crashes and burns". With Blizzard, I've learned to trust them not to mess up something this critical... So, cautiously optimistic.
I guess thats what I mean, I dont understand why its so critical... i mean its buffs and debuffs... they help (or hurt) the fight but they dont make or break it... I would think the game should be set up so everything is possible without any buffs and they simply give you an edge, or debuffs make it a little more difficult, not completely make or break the entire encounter or whatever.




Killer_Tek 2008-08-29 #5
I've never been a huge fan of the current limited supply buff. By that I mean flasks, elixirs, foods. Mainly consumables as a whole. I have never been one to go out of my way to buff myself just so a fight is 1% easier, unless I know I'm not going to die :P.

I have always been a big believer in 'if you can't do it unbuffed, you suck'. Sorry if that offends, but it's pretty pointless to add to your learning repair bill, just for the sake of minimal help from a buff. Once you have your **** locked and know what your doing, pot up and rip crap apart. Many times have I been in a raid and others were complaining that they have run outta buffs for the 'real' attempt.

I think these changes are fairly solid, and really about time. There should be more overall raid synergies, and that will only mean better faster dps/heals/tanking. Raid wide totems, tree aura, pally aura, etc. Stacking a class based on one boss buff/debuff slot is going to be less important, and allow more then one class(locks) to dominate fights.




Jarnis 2008-08-30 #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
I guess thats what I mean, I dont understand why its so critical... i mean its buffs and debuffs... they help (or hurt) the fight but they dont make or break it... I would think the game should be set up so everything is possible without any buffs and they simply give you an edge, or debuffs make it a little more difficult, not completely make or break the entire encounter or whatever.
Currently the top end of raiding is all about stacking every possible buff and debuff - sometimes to the degree that you have to have a very lopsided raid. Most obvious example is the "need" to run 5 or more shamans to fully exploit Bloodlust/Heroism, rotating shamans during fight to the main DPS groups...




snowcrash512 2008-08-30 #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnis View Post
Currently the top end of raiding is all about stacking every possible buff and debuff - sometimes to the degree that you have to have a very lopsided raid. Most obvious example is the "need" to run 5 or more shamans to fully exploit Bloodlust/Heroism, rotating shamans during fight to the main DPS groups...
See now wouldnt that be something they should move away from (well obviously they are)

It just seems like the encounter should be doable without buff stacking and that buffs should offer a small bonus to a raid and not be the only way to play.




Killer_Tek 2008-08-31 #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
See now wouldnt that be something they should move away from (well obviously they are)

It just seems like the encounter should be doable without buff stacking and that buffs should offer a small bonus to a raid and not be the only way to play.
You hit the nail on the head. They don't 'want' us to need to stack on classes as much anymore.




snowcrash512 2008-08-31 #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer_Tek View Post
You hit the nail on the head. They don't 'want' us to need to stack on classes as much anymore.
And people are highly upset about this?

Ive been with wow since it launched and I still cant understand these people that whine about every change they make




Jarnis 2008-08-31 #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
And people are highly upset about this?

Ive been with wow since it launched and I still cant understand these people that whine about every change they make
People are afraid that this will majorly mess up the current raid composition. Many guilds have very tight rosters. For 25-man raiding they might have 30-35 players in the guild. If there is a class today that usually gets 4 players in the raid, and after this change that class is "no longer needed" - you only want to take one - there is guild drama.

As long as DPS and healing classes are balanced well, it shouldn't come to that, but IF there is That One Superior DPS Class, plus you need only 6-8 buff-bringing classes, there is a risk that the mathematically optimum raid involves a mix of 8 people, plus 17 players of That One Uber Class That Is The Best. Which would bump 17 players of all the other classes from the raid rotation of Teh UberGuild Of Doom.

If Blizzard can pull it off, its a good change. Understandably there is some skepticism.




snowcrash512 2008-08-31 #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarnis View Post
People are afraid that this will majorly mess up the current raid composition. Many guilds have very tight rosters. For 25-man raiding they might have 30-35 players in the guild. If there is a class today that usually gets 4 players in the raid, and after this change that class is "no longer needed" - you only want to take one - there is guild drama.

As long as DPS and healing classes are balanced well, it shouldn't come to that, but IF there is That One Superior DPS Class, plus you need only 6-8 buff-bringing classes, there is a risk that the mathematically optimum raid involves a mix of 8 people, plus 17 players of That One Uber Class That Is The Best. Which would bump 17 players of all the other classes from the raid rotation of Teh UberGuild Of Doom.

If Blizzard can pull it off, its a good change. Understandably there is some skepticism.
See now if they have so many people sitting out why not organize more than 1 raid group... it seems like guilds always have a single group of people that do everything and a bunch of people sitting around waiting their turn... Get some better leadership and take 2 or 3 seperate raids out at the same time.... bleh I dunno.




Killer_Tek 2008-08-31 #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
See now if they have so many people sitting out why not organize more than 1 raid group... it seems like guilds always have a single group of people that do everything and a bunch of people sitting around waiting their turn... Get some better leadership and take 2 or 3 seperate raids out at the same time.... bleh I dunno.
This.

Or have tighter smaller guilds, with the 10 or so floater guys that can fill in for any of the random dps/heal/tank spots. I LOVE playing with my 10 core guys in kara badge runs, but finding that on a 25 man scale can be hard.




Jarnis 2008-08-31 #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
See now if they have so many people sitting out why not organize more than 1 raid group... it seems like guilds always have a single group of people that do everything and a bunch of people sitting around waiting their turn... Get some better leadership and take 2 or 3 seperate raids out at the same time.... bleh I dunno.
Fine in theory, hard in practice.

I'm personally playing in a HUGE guild. Over 600 characters and, I guess around 150-200 actual players.

Yet the last time we managed to run two simultaneous 25-man raids was when Serpentshrine Cavern was all the rage, and Hyjal/Black Temple raids were just starting.

The reason for this? Ton of WoW players are "sheep". They are happy to follow, can do their pre-determined job in raids, but are terrified at the prospect of actually having to step up on the plate and show initiative. It was difficult to staff the "secondary raid" - we often had to place one of our veteran raid leaders to "babysit" the second raid, even as he was sorely needed at the BT raid.

It's easier to manage and run multiple 10-mans - and in fact I'm sure when WOTLK launches, the early raiding with 10-man naxxramas will be great fun. I just fear that the problems start when faced with first truly difficult 25-man bosses that don't die just because you throw 25 people at them. First it's tactics and planning, but once that fails and you come to the conclusion that you have to "brute force" something, that's often done by stacking the raid - and if the optimal stacking involves masses of single class, we have a problem as very few guilds can do it, cheapening their kill if they manage to pull it off. Related to this, my guild managed to be second in our server killing Magtheridon back when it was a truly hard encounter. Why? Our massive guild could field six warlocks to banish & fear the adds that one-shotted people. Two other "pro" raid guilds had to recruit new warlocks to their guild to be able to kill it. At other times my guild is usually the 5th, 6th or 7th to kill a specific boss on our server, but this time our large roster helped us to take the boss among the very first.

It might be hard to comprehend by a more casual player, but the guys who "farm" Ederar Twins, M'uru and KJ at the moment all had to go thru a phase with these bosses where they had to do EVERY trick in the book, wipe 200+ times, practice practice practice... before they could eek up the first kill.

Blizzard has really learned how to tune boss encounters to the absolute limit of what's possible and what's not. Unlike in Black Temple, where you can these days do "1-shot everything" speed runs, sometimes in one sitting, Sunwell bosses can still randomly end up wiping any raid - the margins are just so small. Often the golden rule is "One guy died? Okay, it's a wipe, next attempt". At these levels, people will stack the raid with 17 players of single class if that's the way to victory - and on this level, often the raid leader couldn't care less what the rest do while they go and kill the boss...

As an example, back when Serpentshrine Cavern was new, and guilds were working on world first kill on Lady Vashj (Before she got nerfed - multiple times), the way the world first kill was obtained was to have the whole guild level up 20 or so Warlocks to a point where they could soulstone someone. Then the 25-man raid + the warlocks met up outside instance - each member of the raid logged to his alt in turn, soulstoned someone, logged back to his main... effectively giving everyone in the raid a free "reinc". This is why Blizzard nerfed soulstone so that soulstone target had to be in raid/group, and if the warlock that casted it left the raid/group, the soulstone would be removed.

In other words; Players will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that will help them kill those "impossible" raid bosses - up and including silly stacking, and while Blizzard is obviously trying to fix stacking with this change, the fear is that it leads to even more extreme stacking...

Here's hoping they balance everything just right, while keeping the top end raids as difficult and entertaining as they have in the past.






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